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Lettow-Vorbeck

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1

Donnerstag, 10. September 2009, 17:37

Geeignete Liste für Crusader gesucht

Kurze Frage an die Profis:

Welche Liste kommt für den ersten Kreuzzug in Frage? Die aus AoA oder eher eine Normannenliste aus Shieldwall.

mfg Heiko

2

Donnerstag, 10. September 2009, 17:57

Die Crusaderliste aus AoA ist an und für sich halt einfach überzogen, von daher würde ich eher die Normanneliste empfehlen. Ich denke aber das die Crusaderliste durchaus ganz gut geeignet ist wenn man sie mit ein paar Hausregeln beschränkt:

- Ritter nur S3 (ohne Punkteänderung)

- keine Roßharnische

- nicht zu viele Armbruster

Robert E. Lee

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3

Donnerstag, 10. September 2009, 19:39

Die christliche List aus El Cid passt ziemlich gut ;) .
"DBX dat is nix, FoG ? omg -.-"

4

Donnerstag, 10. September 2009, 19:41

Wobei man da auch mit den Roßharnischen aufpassen sollte!

5

Donnerstag, 10. September 2009, 21:37

Grundsätzlich kommen die Western Franks (Normannen, Flandern, Capetian Franks) aus Shieldwall, die Christian Spain (Age of ElCid und Reconquista) aus ElCid, die Crusader Liste aus WAB und die Italo-Normannen (Vatiation der Western Franks) aus Beyond the Golden Gate in Frage.

Folgendes sollte berücksichtigt werden
  • Keine Ordenritter
  • Keine Turcopolen oder ähnliches (Jinetes oder Arab Allies aus ElCid und BTGG)
  • Noch nicht zuvie Heavy Armour
  • Kein Barding
  • Je später im Kreuzzug desto weniger Mounted Milites
  • Man könnte meiner Meinung nach durchaus die Pilgrims aus WAB1.5 auch in den anderen Listen verwenden, ist für mich kein Chery Picking
  • Armbrüste können durchaus üppig eingesetzt werden, ich würde sogar mehr Armbrüstschützen als Bogenschützen nehmen. Aber kein Mixed Order wie in der Crusader Liste, das kommt erst noch später.
Grüße

Bernhard

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6

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 00:00

It really depends on your gaming group.If your not interested in balance and just want a list to play then AoA is the list and at the moment is the only official list.You may have noticed from some remarks that it's one of the lists that is considered very hard and well.....it is. ;) All the armies in AoA were made as temporary lists and were not subjected to a great deal of play testing and as a consequence some have resulted in a brutal list.
If your looking for a more balanced list then the EL Cid Christian lists are your best bet.They are right along the same time period and equipment.Only thing I'd recommend is taking more infantry to cavalry ratio then a typical EL Cid christian list as the Spanish included a significantly greater proportion of mounted to dismounted troops in their armies in general.

7

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 00:09

Die Crusaderliste aus AoA ist an und für sich halt einfach überzogen, von daher würde ich eher die Normanneliste empfehlen. Ich denke aber das die Crusaderliste durchaus ganz gut geeignet ist wenn man sie mit ein paar Hausregeln beschränkt:

- Ritter nur S3 (ohne Punkteänderung)

- keine Roßharnische

- nicht zu viele Armbruster
Solange man beachtet, dass die Reiter M4 haben sehe ich keine so grossen Probleme mit den Kreuzzugrittern.
Gruss Christof

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8

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 13:23

ich habe zwei Listen von Chris Stone die passen könnten
CRUSADES PILGRIM ARMY Attracting Noble’s, Knights and Peasants alike the pilgrim crusade provided an odd assortment of travellers to the Holy land.This mob would usually run at the first sign of trouble often only to be rallied by the religious fever of one of the leaders. PILGRIM ARMY
Characters: Up to 33% of the available points may be spent on Leaders and Religious Leader.

Infantry: At least 33% of the available points must be spent on infantry.

Cavalry: Up to 33% of the available points may be spent on Cavalry. One unit of Knights may be chosen.
Crusading Pilgims Special Rule
• One Leader, Religious Leader, must be chosen from the character entries, and he must be upgraded to Pilgrimage Leader (+25 pts) who counts as the Army General.
SPECIAL RULES
Pilgrim Camp

Pilgrims moved as a mob and would often decimate food and supplies at any places visited on their travels. They formed huge camps effectively small towns wherever they stopped. To reflect this, the following rule applies to pilgrim armies:

1. Pilgrim armies may always place D3 patches of difficult terrain in their deployment zone. Each patch measures about 6” by 6”, and must be placed before deployment begins.
CHARACTERS Leaders and Religious PersonalitiesKnights making their own crusade with bands of followers or religious personalities with a following of those seeking a better life or their own god they all came to the holy land. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Leader 5 4 4 4 3 2 5 2 8 60

Religious Leader 5 4 4 4 3 1 4 2 7 40

Equipment: A hand weapon and light armour. May have buckler (+1 pt), shield (+2 pts), either javelins (+2 pts) or bow (+3 pts), and either thrusting or throwing spear (+2 pts). May ride a horse (+8 pts).

Army Standard Bearer Option: One Leader may be upgraded to Army Standard Bearer (+15 pts).

Special Rule: Mounted Characters have Feigned Flight.
INFANTRY

Pilgrim Infantry and FollowersFrom all over Europe east and west they came to find a better place. Some skilled in arms others came with a fanatical frenzy of their God. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Pilgrim Infantry5 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 4 4

Followers 5 2 2 3 3 1 2 1 4 3

Equipment: Mixed weapons (count as a hand weapon and javelins) and shield. Every other unit of Pilgrim Infantry may have throwing spear (+1 pt) or bow (+2 pts) instead of javelins. Two units of Pilgrim Infantry may have either halberds (+2 pts), or double-handed weapons (+3 pts) - this goes to reflect the Pilgrim Infantry’s use of any weapon to hand and differing backgrounds of the troops.

Skirmisher Option: Any Pilgrim Infantry unit may be designated as Skirmishers (+1 pt). Pilgrim Infantry Skirmishers have Feigned Flight.

Special Rules: Light Infantry. Warband. Pilgrim Infantry and Followers have Stealth.
CAVALRY CavalryMounted knights and few followers who owned horses who for their own reasons joined the Pilgrimage were often poorer equipped than there military counterparts. While there were some extraordinary well equipped and experienced knights and Men at arms these were often hindered and slowed by the rest of the “Cavalry” M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
0-1 Knights 8 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 17

Cavalry 8 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 15

Equipment: A hand weapon, javelins and buckler. May have shield instead of buckler (+1 pt), and throwing spear (+1 pt). Knights may have light armour (+2 pts).

Special Rules: Skirmishers. Feigned Flight. If Knights are chosen, at least one unit of Cavalry must be taken as well.

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9

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 13:27

oder
EARLY CRUSADERS ARMY SELECTION
Characters: Up to 25% of the available points.

Infantry: Up to 50% of the available points.

Cavalry: At least 33%.

Allies & Mercenaries: Up to 25% of the available points may be spent on either Allied & Mercenary troops, and on Ayyubid Regular and Volunteer Cavalry and City Militia Infantry only may be chosen
Early Crusades Special Rules
• One unit of Frankish infantry may be upgraded to Elite (+1 pt) and may use Shieldwall may also have light armour (+2pts) no longer count as Levies

• One unit of Light Cavalry may be given Light Armour (+2 pts)
CHARACTERS 0-1 General The general represents one of those characters who came to the Holy Land and carved out the Kingdom of Jerusalem and Outremer against incredible odds. They held onto these possessions for 200 years. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
General 4 6 4 4 4 3 6 4 9 200

Equipment: Hand weapon. throwing spear, light armour, shield, upgrade to heavy armour (+1 pt), exchange throwing spear for thrusting spear free, javelins(+2 pts), lance (+6 pts), warhorse(+4pts)

Special Rules: Army General.
0-1 Army Standard BearerThe general's personal banner bore his coat of arms and marked his position on the battlefield. The progress marked the tide of battle as it ebbed and flowed. The army battle standard provided a focal point and an inspiration. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
ASB 4 5 4 4 4 2 6 3 8 115

Equipment: Hand weapon. throwing spear, light armour, upgrade to heavy armour (+1 pt), exchange throwing spear for thrusting spear free, javelins(+2 pts), lance (+6pts), warhorse(+4pts) (Note No shield)

Special Rules: Army Standard.
CommandersThe Crusades were full of Barons, princes, dispossessed nobles and counts and of course religious personalities. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Count 4 5 4 4 3 2 6 3 8 110

Bishop 4 5 4 4 4 2 6 3 9 140

Equipment: Hand weapon, light armour, shield, upgrade to heavy armour (+1 pt), warhorse(+4pts) Count is armed with throwing spear, may exchange throwing spear for thrusting spear free, javelins(+2 pts), lance (+6 pts),
Special Rules: Bishop: Any unit Bishop is with may re roll any failed panic tests. If a General has not been chosen you may upgrade one Count to Army General (+25 pts) CAVALRY Frankish KnightsWestern knights were extremely well-armoured, but they could become very exposed to missile fire, and the intense heat could take its toll as well. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Mounted Knights 8 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 30

Dismounted knights 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 14

Equipment: Hand weapon, light armour and shield. throwing spear or thrusting spear, Mounted Knights have warhorses. May have heavy armour (+1 pt) and exchange thrusting spear for lance (+4 pts).

Special Rule: Mounted Knights have Ferocious Charge, and may count their rank bonus up to +1.
Light cavalryUseful in the role of scouting and harassing enemy troops were the knights could not go. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Light Cav 8 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 17

Equipment: Hand weapon javelins, shield may exchange javelins for throwing or thrusting spear (+2 pts).

Special Rules: Light Cavalry.
INFANTRY Frankish InfantrySpear armed infantry were the backbone of the Crusader armies. Their numbers comprised a mix of armed volunteers and grizzled veterans of the European wars. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Frankish infantry 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 5

Equipment: Hand weapon, thrusting spear and shield. May have javelins (+1 pt)

Special Rules: Levies; every other unit of Frankish infantry unit may exchange thrusting spear and shield for bow (free). Any unit of Frankish infantry may be designated Light Infantry (free)
SkirmishersThese are Europeans who had some expertise in shooting, often huntsmen. They provided a handy skirmishing element for rooting enemies out of difficult terrain. Although not as powerful as the crossbow they could fire on the move and add the weight of fire to the crossbows when enemy horsemen approached. Muslims archers usually outranged them M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Volunteers 4 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 5 3

Equipment: Hand weapon, javelins & buckler. May exchange javelins for a sling (free) or bow (+1 pt).

Special Rule: Levies; Skirmishers.
ALLIES & MERCENARIES Mercenary Knight’sKnights out to make their fortune or reputation often joined crusading armies. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Mercenary Knights 8 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 27

Dismounted Knights 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 13

Equipment: A hand weapon, light armour and shield. throwing spear or thrusting spear, Mounted Knights have warhorses. May have heavy armour (+1 pt) javelins (+1 pt)

Special Rule: Mounted Mercenary Knights may count their rank bonus up to +1. Mercenaries Rule Any unit wishing to move charge or shoot for the first time must pass a roll of 2-6 on a D6 a roll of one is a fail and another attempt can be made next turn. When a roll is passed there is no need for further rolls with that unit. The unit may defend itself if attacked including shooting against chargers.
Mercenary InfantryMost Muslim cavalry and many infantry were bow armed allowing them to shoot down the crusaders long before close combat occurred. European Crossbowmen went some way to countering this. This powerful weapon was a hefty device and awkward to load on the move. What it lacked in mobility it more than made up for in sheer penetrating power. The iron bolt could punch through the heaviest Muslim armour with ease. Crossbowmen were much feared and prized mercenaries. M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts
Mercenary Infantry 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 5

Equipment: Hand weapon, shield(+1 pt) light armour (+2 pts) javelins (+1 pt) throwing or thrusting spear (+1 pt) or double handed weapon (swords/axes) (+2 pt) or bow (+2 pts) or crossbow (+5 pt).

Special Rules: Any unit of mercenary infantry may be designated Light Infantry (free) Mercenaries Rule Any unit wishing to move charge or shoot for the first time must pass a roll of 2-6 on a D6 a roll of one is a fail and another attempt can be made next turn. When a roll is passed there is no need for further rolls with that unit. The unit may defend itself if attacked including shooting against chargers.



Beide Listen sind von einem Mini-Suplement, das mit Unterstützung von Rob Broom für ein Crusades Wochenende (Juni 2009) mit Musketeer Miniartures, Gripping Beast und Warhammer Historical veranstaltet wurde. Hoffe das hilft.

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10

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 13:56

Wo hast du die Listen denn her, haben die nicht nur Teilnehmer des Events in Evesham bekommen?! :)

Wär da auch dran interessiert.

Shapur

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11

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 23:30

ich war Teilnehmer und habe das komplette "Mini-Suplement" ist leider als Word-Datei etwas über 1 MB groß. Es versucht die alle Listen bis Mameluken abzubilden. Schicke mir ne PN mit deiner E-Mail-Adresse und ich schicke dir die Datei.

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12

Freitag, 11. September 2009, 23:36

Ist unterwegs, Danke :)

13

Sonntag, 13. September 2009, 01:35

@Antipater
Gab es Turcopolen auch schon vor dem Fall von Jerusalem? Ich dachte während des eigentlichen Kreuzugs, also bis zur Eroberung Jerusalems gab es sie noch nicht, sondern erst danach ?(

Ich hatte meinen Vorschlag auf den eigentlichen Kreuzug beschränkt. In den Jahren danach hätte ich auch Turcopolen und muslimische Verbündete vorgeschlagen.
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14

Sonntag, 13. September 2009, 12:01

Man beachte die :zitat: . Ich meinte nicht Turkopolen im Sinne regulär angeheuerter Söldner oder Dienstpflichtiger, sondern allgemein orientalisch-muslimische Elemente in der Liste. Spätestens ab Kleinasien waren solche "Unterstützungseinheiten" beim Ersten Kreuzzug dabei.
Conquering Lead Mountain – meine Hobbyvitrine.

15

Sonntag, 13. September 2009, 12:06

ok überzeugt!
Weniger labern, mehr spielen ...

Duke Wellington nachmittags bei Waterloo
"Das Metagame kann mich kreuzweise ..."

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Lettow-Vorbeck

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16

Sonntag, 13. September 2009, 16:36

Wow was für ein Feedback. Danke Jungs :)